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CSM5 June 2010 Summit Meeting Minutes Published
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TeaDaze



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 146
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RAWR Vuk Lau wrote:
Helicity i wanted to give 2/10 for this, but after TD bought it i must give you 9/10

I just stated that it wasn't blocked through the guest wifi. I haven't used a machine on the CCP network so couldn't have confirmed that it was or wasn't blocked in the first place nor can I check if it is indeed blocked now Razz


Also Snipah
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TeaDaze



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mynxee wrote:
FYI Mazz has been confirmed as Ankh's replacement so now we can tell her all our dirty CSM5 delegate-only sekrits...oh wait...we don't have any Sad (notwithstanding w/e is going on with Vuk and Sok).

I haven't seen anything posted or emailed about this. Should I be concerned that people want me out of the loop Shocked :tinfoil:
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T'amber



Joined: 24 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TeaDaze wrote:
Mynxee wrote:
FYI Mazz has been confirmed as Ankh's replacement so now we can tell her all our dirty CSM5 delegate-only sekrits...oh wait...we don't have any Sad (notwithstanding w/e is going on with Vuk and Sok).

I haven't seen anything posted or emailed about this. Should I be concerned that people want me out of the loop Shocked :tinfoil:


Check your emails Tea.

Also, I can confirm that you can in fact view SHC while on the CCP network.
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Bartholomeus Crane



Joined: 13 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry to disappoint you Virt, but I'm not going to do a bullet-point list of memorable quotes from the Minutes. I'm rolling from one paper deadline into a new research proposal deadline, so I've hardly got the time to fully deconstruct the minutes.

I have, on the other hand, now fully read the minutes, and, although the shock/disappointment has worn off a bit, it still makes for very worrying reading. The most shocking reading, at least initially, is naturally that CCP has basically allocated almost all of its development resources to Incarna/Dust and that there are basically no resources available for current player concerns for approximately 2 years to come. Shockingly enough, there isn't any willingness to compromise on this either. Statements to that effect are basically spread all over the document, and too numerous to mention them all.

Here are some interesting examples (some quoted before, emphasis mine):

Wednesday, 14:30-15:30: "... once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features." Of note here is that Planetary Interaction and Dust are mentioned as basically the same thing and that the shift in focus is probable and conditional! This quote on its own disabuses any dreams players may have had of CCP's willingness to compromise. It is basically followed up with another shocker.

Wednesday, 14:30-15:30: "[CCP mentions] that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features." Of note here is the fundamental disagreement of the CCP leadership (this is the session with Nathan) and the players as represented by the CSM. Nathan has data, and because it reinforces his view of reality, he's concentrating only on that, moreover it supports his focus, and that is selling things. I doubt retaining things is in his vocabulary anymore. And the inflexible lock-in with the decisions CCP management are exemplified later on:

Wednesday, 16:30-17:30: "The mission team explained that all of its resources for the Winter expansion have been committed and because of that [sic] there would not be a lot of room for other matters.", "Resources for this will be very scarce since the team will be almost totally focused on a new feature.", "The mission team approves of the idea but cannot make any commitment to change at this point.", "The content team stated that they intend to rebalance that but could not give a definite timetable for it." And this just an example of one session, this goes on and on and on for different subjects, in different sessions, under different circumstances, with different teams. It must have been very tiring for the CSM to have to listen to such idioticy over and over and over again.

Every-time anything comes up the message is the same: CCP is committed to a development plan already decided upon, and whatever happens, it is not going to alter or rethink those decisions.

Is this the most interesting in the minutes? Well, it certainly is very surprising that CCP actually allowed all this to just get out in the open, so it is interesting to consider how this came to pass.

But no, the most interesting bit in the minutes is actually in the first two or three sections on the Wednesday. lolwut? Yes, lolwut, but rather tragicomically. Because these sections don't merely describe how the CSM fits into the corporate culture as a stakeholder, it also gives a description of what that corporate culture is, and how it organised.

What's so interesting or tragic about that you ask? Well, I invite you to read between the lines (only barely necessary), and then consider how the corporate culture and organisation should be if this, or rather should be, a company developing an immersion product. Notice, if you will, the inflexible planning structure, the steep hierarchy, the downright arcade decision-making protocols and then consider how this is supposed to work in practice! The segregation inherent in the corporate organisation? It breathes apathy and detachment for anyone having to work in the corporate culture described.

CCP, on an organisational/cultural level, isn't even close to where it is supposed to be. In fact, what we see described is about polar opposite of what it should be. It is really heart-wrenching to see what has become of CCP. CCP's management (mis)managed to turn an innovative collaborative work-flow organisation into a huge burden with fixed development paths and an inflexible decision-making progress so out of tune with not just their customers but basically with what must be the majority of their employees as well. They have turned CCP as a company into an uncontrollable blob of conflicting interests and influences with a detached management level operating in a feedback vacuum. All the old values still described on the CCP website have clearly been thrown out of the window. I truly don't even see a recollection of them in this description.

Why should this be more interesting? Because it tells me there is barely any future for this corporate structure in the environment in which it will need to operate. This goes beyond the 2 year moratorium of meaningful development of features in EVE. This tells me there is hardly any possibility now of CCP embarrassing the enterprise model before it is too late. Forget the blatant lies that have now been exposed (not siphoning off EVE resources to other ventures for example), this should an recognition inability and general insensitivity to game-changing environments that can not be overstated.

I was wrong. CCP as a whole hasn't retreated behind a mott-and-bailey, only CCP management has and the walls have been build with ignorance. The players have been left in the woods, that was clear for a long time. But what is now clear is that the employees have mostly been left to fend for themselves as well. It is sad really, because as much as I love EVE and what is has offered, and what it could offer, I doubt I will be playing it for long now.
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TeaDaze



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T'amber wrote:
Check your emails Tea.

Have done, got none - hence my :tinfoil:
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Helicity



Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 430

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



See also the posting history:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=lastposts&cid=793804011

Laughing

Incidentally, we are now unblocked again! HI SEE SEE PEE *waves*
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T'amber



Joined: 24 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TeaDaze wrote:
T'amber wrote:
Check your emails Tea.

Have done, got none - hence my :tinfoil:


I forwarded the email to your SHC inbox.
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Mynxee



Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TeaDaze wrote:
T'amber wrote:
Check your emails Tea.

Have done, got none - hence my :tinfoil:


You were on my distro but same old issue with bouncing. Maybe Sok will be a darling and fwd my mail to you.

Edit: reading fail; thanx t'amber!

Also, Barth, great post...if my net access wasn't confined to my iPhone ATM, I'd have a longer reply. Maybe later.
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Virtuozzo



Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartholomeus Crane wrote:
I'm sorry to disappoint you Virt, but I'm not going to do a bullet-point list of memorable quotes from the Minutes. I'm rolling from one paper deadline into a new research proposal deadline, so I've hardly got the time to fully deconstruct the minutes.

I have, on the other hand, now fully read the minutes, and, although the shock/disappointment has worn off a bit, it still makes for very worrying reading. The most shocking reading, at least initially, is naturally that CCP has basically allocated almost all of its development resources to Incarna/Dust and that there are basically no resources available for current player concerns for approximately 2 years to come. Shockingly enough, there isn't any willingness to compromise on this either. Statements to that effect are basically spread all over the document, and too numerous to mention them all.

Here are some interesting examples (some quoted before, emphasis mine):

Wednesday, 14:30-15:30: "... once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features." Of note here is that Planetary Interaction and Dust are mentioned as basically the same thing and that the shift in focus is probable and conditional! This quote on its own disabuses any dreams players may have had of CCP's willingness to compromise. It is basically followed up with another shocker.

Wednesday, 14:30-15:30: "[CCP mentions] that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features." Of note here is the fundamental disagreement of the CCP leadership (this is the session with Nathan) and the players as represented by the CSM. Nathan has data, and because it reinforces his view of reality, he's concentrating only on that, moreover it supports his focus, and that is selling things. I doubt retaining things is in his vocabulary anymore. And the inflexible lock-in with the decisions CCP management are exemplified later on:

Wednesday, 16:30-17:30: "The mission team explained that all of its resources for the Winter expansion have been committed and because of that [sic] there would not be a lot of room for other matters.", "Resources for this will be very scarce since the team will be almost totally focused on a new feature.", "The mission team approves of the idea but cannot make any commitment to change at this point.", "The content team stated that they intend to rebalance that but could not give a definite timetable for it." And this just an example of one session, this goes on and on and on for different subjects, in different sessions, under different circumstances, with different teams. It must have been very tiring for the CSM to have to listen to such idioticy over and over and over again.

Every-time anything comes up the message is the same: CCP is committed to a development plan already decided upon, and whatever happens, it is not going to alter or rethink those decisions.

Is this the most interesting in the minutes? Well, it certainly is very surprising that CCP actually allowed all this to just get out in the open, so it is interesting to consider how this came to pass.

But no, the most interesting bit in the minutes is actually in the first two or three sections on the Wednesday. lolwut? Yes, lolwut, but rather tragicomically. Because these sections don't merely describe how the CSM fits into the corporate culture as a stakeholder, it also gives a description of what that corporate culture is, and how it organised.

What's so interesting or tragic about that you ask? Well, I invite you to read between the lines (only barely necessary), and then consider how the corporate culture and organisation should be if this, or rather should be, a company developing an immersion product. Notice, if you will, the inflexible planning structure, the steep hierarchy, the downright arcade decision-making protocols and then consider how this is supposed to work in practice! The segregation inherent in the corporate organisation? It breathes apathy and detachment for anyone having to work in the corporate culture described.

CCP, on an organisational/cultural level, isn't even close to where it is supposed to be. In fact, what we see described is about polar opposite of what it should be. It is really heart-wrenching to see what has become of CCP. CCP's management (mis)managed to turn an innovative collaborative work-flow organisation into a huge burden with fixed development paths and an inflexible decision-making progress so out of tune with not just their customers but basically with what must be the majority of their employees as well. They have turned CCP as a company into an uncontrollable blob of conflicting interests and influences with a detached management level operating in a feedback vacuum. All the old values still described on the CCP website have clearly been thrown out of the window. I truly don't even see a recollection of them in this description.

Why should this be more interesting? Because it tells me there is barely any future for this corporate structure in the environment in which it will need to operate. This goes beyond the 2 year moratorium of meaningful development of features in EVE. This tells me there is hardly any possibility now of CCP embarrassing the enterprise model before it is too late. Forget the blatant lies that have now been exposed (not siphoning off EVE resources to other ventures for example), this should an recognition inability and general insensitivity to game-changing environments that can not be overstated.

I was wrong. CCP as a whole hasn't retreated behind a mott-and-bailey, only CCP management has and the walls have been build with ignorance. The players have been left in the woods, that was clear for a long time. But what is now clear is that the employees have mostly been left to fend for themselves as well. It is sad really, because as much as I love EVE and what is has offered, and what it could offer, I doubt I will be playing it for long now.


This post, the observations in it, the structure as well as the supporting elements, this is quite probably the best review of the current situation as I have seen it thusfar. Not even among industry publications have I see anything this exact and to the point, granted those did not have insight this detailed yet on several of the patterns discernable, but that has changed.

As uncanny as it is, the situation is remarkably similar to many situations I have gone through myself, prior to retirement, and all fully in line with choice points on the enterprise development curve. I get a little bit nervous however, considering that in the majority of those cases we ended up dealing with a board of directors. Horrible, but traditionally healthy, at such critical moments of chosing the enterprise direction and model. Even more horrible, considering the set of choices available.

Such a waste. And yes, I know, I'm stupid, but I still think they can make the right choices, save themselves, take care of their people, and not just deliver generational products, but become a powerhouse that lives its own markets. But they do need to choose.

I've seen it happen, I've seen it done. It is possible, and it is really refreshing, and ultimately there is no better way to take care of people.
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Ransf



Joined: 18 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So basically some people at CCP wish they could do things differently but in the end they know that pushing towards incarna and dust as fast as they can will bring them the clients they'll lose until then+a lot more?
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Seleene



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartholomeus Crane wrote:
I'm sorry to disappoint you Virt, but I'm not going to do a bullet-point list of memorable quotes from the Minutes. I'm rolling from one paper deadline into a new research proposal deadline, so I've hardly got the time to fully deconstruct the minutes.

I have, on the other hand, now fully read the minutes, and, although the shock/disappointment has worn off a bit, it still makes for very worrying reading. The most shocking reading, at least initially, is naturally that CCP has basically allocated almost all of its development resources to Incarna/Dust and that there are basically no resources available for current player concerns for approximately 2 years to come. Shockingly enough, there isn't any willingness to compromise on this either. Statements to that effect are basically spread all over the document, and too numerous to mention them all.

Here are some interesting examples (some quoted before, emphasis mine):

Wednesday, 14:30-15:30: "... once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features." Of note here is that Planetary Interaction and Dust are mentioned as basically the same thing and that the shift in focus is probable and conditional! This quote on its own disabuses any dreams players may have had of CCP's willingness to compromise. It is basically followed up with another shocker.

Wednesday, 14:30-15:30: "[CCP mentions] that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features." Of note here is the fundamental disagreement of the CCP leadership (this is the session with Nathan) and the players as represented by the CSM. Nathan has data, and because it reinforces his view of reality, he's concentrating only on that, moreover it supports his focus, and that is selling things. I doubt retaining things is in his vocabulary anymore. And the inflexible lock-in with the decisions CCP management are exemplified later on:

Wednesday, 16:30-17:30: "The mission team explained that all of its resources for the Winter expansion have been committed and because of that [sic] there would not be a lot of room for other matters.", "Resources for this will be very scarce since the team will be almost totally focused on a new feature.", "The mission team approves of the idea but cannot make any commitment to change at this point.", "The content team stated that they intend to rebalance that but could not give a definite timetable for it." And this just an example of one session, this goes on and on and on for different subjects, in different sessions, under different circumstances, with different teams. It must have been very tiring for the CSM to have to listen to such idioticy over and over and over again.

Every-time anything comes up the message is the same: CCP is committed to a development plan already decided upon, and whatever happens, it is not going to alter or rethink those decisions.

Is this the most interesting in the minutes? Well, it certainly is very surprising that CCP actually allowed all this to just get out in the open, so it is interesting to consider how this came to pass.

But no, the most interesting bit in the minutes is actually in the first two or three sections on the Wednesday. lolwut? Yes, lolwut, but rather tragicomically. Because these sections don't merely describe how the CSM fits into the corporate culture as a stakeholder, it also gives a description of what that corporate culture is, and how it organised.

What's so interesting or tragic about that you ask? Well, I invite you to read between the lines (only barely necessary), and then consider how the corporate culture and organisation should be if this, or rather should be, a company developing an immersion product. Notice, if you will, the inflexible planning structure, the steep hierarchy, the downright arcade decision-making protocols and then consider how this is supposed to work in practice! The segregation inherent in the corporate organisation? It breathes apathy and detachment for anyone having to work in the corporate culture described.

CCP, on an organisational/cultural level, isn't even close to where it is supposed to be. In fact, what we see described is about polar opposite of what it should be. It is really heart-wrenching to see what has become of CCP. CCP's management (mis)managed to turn an innovative collaborative work-flow organisation into a huge burden with fixed development paths and an inflexible decision-making progress so out of tune with not just their customers but basically with what must be the majority of their employees as well. They have turned CCP as a company into an uncontrollable blob of conflicting interests and influences with a detached management level operating in a feedback vacuum. All the old values still described on the CCP website have clearly been thrown out of the window. I truly don't even see a recollection of them in this description.

Why should this be more interesting? Because it tells me there is barely any future for this corporate structure in the environment in which it will need to operate. This goes beyond the 2 year moratorium of meaningful development of features in EVE. This tells me there is hardly any possibility now of CCP embarrassing the enterprise model before it is too late. Forget the blatant lies that have now been exposed (not siphoning off EVE resources to other ventures for example), this should an recognition inability and general insensitivity to game-changing environments that can not be overstated.

I was wrong. CCP as a whole hasn't retreated behind a mott-and-bailey, only CCP management has and the walls have been build with ignorance. The players have been left in the woods, that was clear for a long time. But what is now clear is that the employees have mostly been left to fend for themselves as well. It is sad really, because as much as I love EVE and what is has offered, and what it could offer, I doubt I will be playing it for long now.


Wow. This is a post.
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TeaDaze



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 146
Location: Agony Empire

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mynxee wrote:
You were on my distro but same old issue with bouncing. Maybe Sok will be a darling and fwd my mail to you.

Because eve-mail.net insists that its fully qualified domain name is "mail" my server has been rejecting it. I've added an exception for now.

Along those lines the scrapheap server identifies itself as "phoenix" and sends emails from "nobody@phoenix" which explains why I don't get notifications about private messages either. My filtering is pretty standard (ensure valid FQD in the HELO) so whilst I'll now get messages, if anyone else is having issues now you know.


I deal with too many fail mailservers everyday...
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Arimathea Anthalas



Joined: 20 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion we ought to look at putting together a proposal in assembly hall that's basically like a "we disagree with the following bogus conclusions from the minutes" and think you need to focus on X Y Z.

If it's broad enough people will support it, and we can get a good bunch of people engaged on the issue, perhaps enough to punctuate our displeasure.
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Kaldor Mintat



Joined: 09 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ransf wrote:
So basically some people at CCP wish they could do things differently but in the end they know that pushing towards incarna and dust as fast as they can will bring them the clients they'll lose until then+a lot more?


Since most other MMO's are based around the idea of having an actual freemoving avatar and thus are built around the idea to actually provide alot of stuff for that avatar to do i do not think Incarna alone will keep many newcomers long in the game.

As for already established players that have an interest in Incarna the long development procces means it will have to be frigging epic to satisfy for most.

Dust? Well, i guess alot of eveplayers will try it out but consolegame fps in the main have rather short lifetimes.

We will see when Incarna/Dust finally comes but i subscribe to the pessimist view......that way i am prepared for the dissapointment and easily cheered if things are better than i expected. Wink
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Intigo



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helicity, what is your terrible post supposed to mean?
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