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The Fate and Future of Providence
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Clavius XIV



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 679

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Appleby wrote:
Takon Orlani wrote:
I would certainly hope for a rvb style area of 0.0. That's about all I can do.

Since that came up before in here, both by me and essentially by others as well, I would like to ask the people from U'K, Paxton, CVA and also -A- that post or lurk here:
Would you guys do it?


I'm also not in charge, but I would say, hell no. And the reason isn't because its not fun, but because it's disingenuous, not real, and not EVE. This sort of "play fighting" was a fixture of the very early empire RP days (2004-2005?) with staged battles etc. A world without consequences is not real RP. A world that is artificially static you can't influence does not make for good RP. A sandbox within the sandbox, totally shielded from the larger world is not interesting.

The best RP in the game has always been what is happening in 0.0 between the major powers.

For that quick meaningless PvP fix, SISI is always there, and RvB is just pure win.

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Gobbins



Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 529
Location: IXC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manfred heres a suggestion:

1. Create "John Hammond" alliance
2. Take KBP and call the station "Welcome to Jurassic Park"
3. Take a second station in the middle of provi within bridge range of kbp. Link it to kbp via bridge with public password.
4. Charge people to be set blue to JH alliance hence being able to use the bridge to the middle of provi.
5. Charge people to dock in the two stations. Put souvenirs for sale.
6. ?
7. Das Profit



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Jordan Musgrat.



Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 624
Location: Havoc/AAA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be awesome, but you'd need more than 1 bridge otherwise it would be camped on both sides by both entity's bombers and just turn into a bombfest. Which would be cool for a week or 2, but meh.

But if you had the entire region controlled by an alt alliance, charged a small docking fee to pay for the fuel, it would basically be npc 0.0 but with public bridges. And you could control who got to base out of it, so you wouldn't have any mega alliances moving in with a 200 man BS gang and ruining it. It would just be a few factions basing out of a few stations at a time, but with the 40 stations that provi has, there's no way anyone could control all of them. Maybe you would give 2 stations in remote corners to each party though, so they could print isk. No point in creating a massive isk sink region, need to let everyone make isk enough to keep it going.
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Joe Appleby



Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 2193
Location: [P.D.G] / Ex-Voltron / [DYSON] Germany

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't asking for staged battles or anything, but rather that -A-, U'K etc grant CVA a right to live in about half of Provi and U'K holds onto the other half. And from that we shall see what happens. If there was a mutual agreement not to destroy the others, all would be set.

Obviously you guys put personal 15 minutes of fame of destroying the other above the good of many. Just shows how big your egos are. And we all know what happens with alliances with egos bigger than their cap fleets.
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Uncle Vladie



Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 990
Location: H A V O C

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gobbins wrote:
Manfred heres a suggestion:

1. Create "John Hammond" alliance
2. Take KBP and call the station "Welcome to Jurassic Park"
3. Take a second station in the middle of provi within bridge range of kbp. Link it to kbp via bridge with public password.
4. Charge people to be set blue to JH alliance hence being able to use the bridge to the middle of provi.
5. Charge people to dock in the two stations. Put souvenirs for sale.
6. ?
7. Das Profit





Awesome idea is awesome.

Have other station names:

T-Rex Pen, bring goats
Veliceraptor Pen
OH SHIT, SOMEONE TURNED OFF THE FENCE!
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Garreck



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 140
Location: CVA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Appleby wrote:

Obviously you guys put personal 15 minutes of fame of destroying the other above the good of many. Just shows how big your egos are. And we all know what happens with alliances with egos bigger than their cap fleets.

I'm seriously trying to grasp the bitterness so many folks seem to have that Providence made a move, failed horribly, and are now suffering the consequences. More to the point, the bitterness that we choose to take what's coming (and the fights along with it) rather than prop ourselves up with an agreement that allows us to re-establish the status quo.

If we can't defend our space from our enemies, we shouldn't hold space. That's how the game's meant to work. I can understand those celebrating with -A- and U'K at our failure, but I just don't "get" those who come across so upset that we'd rather lose on our terms.
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Clavius XIV



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 679

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you mean see what happens? Nothing meaningful *can* happen in that scenario. It's just RvB with bubbles and caps... is there really that much demand for capital warfare and warp bubbles in RvB?

Quote:

And we all know what happens with alliances with egos bigger than their cap fleets.


What should happen is natural selection, so that if there is a next time they will learn lessons. Keep the status quo artifically and there is no selective pressure. Bailing people out does not help them learn from their mistakes.
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Brushahar



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clavius XIV wrote:

What should happen is natural selection, so that if there is a next time they will learn lessons. Keep the status quo artifically and there is no selective pressure. Bailing people out does not help them learn from their mistakes.


Unless you are a large failed bank in the US.
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Joe Appleby



Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 2193
Location: [P.D.G] / Ex-Voltron / [DYSON] Germany

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clavius XIV wrote:
What do you mean see what happens? Nothing meaningful *can* happen in that scenario. It's just RvB with bubbles and caps... is there really that much demand for capital warfare and warp bubbles in RvB?

I am actually more interested in having a couple of systems / constellations to roam in (am red to cva by a long shot) and a few systems / constellations to carebear in.
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Nuyan



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clavius XIV wrote:

I'm also not in charge, but I would say, hell no. And the reason isn't because its not fun, but because it's disingenuous, not real, and not EVE. This sort of "play fighting" was a fixture of the very early empire RP days (2004-2005?) with staged battles etc. A world without consequences is not real RP. A world that is artificially static you can't influence does not make for good RP. A sandbox within the sandbox, totally shielded from the larger world is not interesting.

The best RP in the game has always been what is happening in 0.0 between the major powers.


This. I find the "RP lolol", "CVA/UK are RP fags" posts and the idea that they should be treated differently just because of them being "roleplayers lol" about as annoying as the suggestions that CVA is not a RP alliance or betrayed their roots (which has been one of the constant claims from certain groups of people since CVA took UNITY station years ago).

The constant drama that constantly happens all over 0.0 are just as much "RP" as FW or what has happened in Providence over the years. Doesn't mean that CVA/UK are completely the same as any other 0.0 alliance, of course they have an overall theme and ideology that influence their actions and which enriches EVE. Which is awesome and I love it when alliances are driven by more than 'pew-pew' and 'ISK-ISK'.
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Snake



Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 382
Location: HABIT

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I for one, endorse the idea that once CVA gets kicked out of providence, they join amarr FW.


Would work well for their lolrp fags.
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Frygok



Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 1068
Location: WEDIE - The Littlest Hobo (U'K)

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I hope, from a grunts view, is that AAA+UK decimates Providence, making the Proviblob significantly smaller than it currently is, and then AAA leaves Providence to its fate.

Everyone would be able to go there, could sort out their own standings, with U'K and CVA being obvious enemies there.

Ofcourse, knowing the nature of alliances, this will be impossible, as you could end up having large alliances like Goonswarm moving right next door to -A-, taking over Providence entirely.

However, a smaller CVA aligned coalition would be wonderful for U'K, in my view.
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Ituralde



Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 364
Location: [STIM]

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Garreck wrote:

I'm seriously trying to grasp the bitterness so many folks seem to have that Providence made a move, failed horribly, and are now suffering the consequences. More to the point, the bitterness that we choose to take what's coming (and the fights along with it) rather than prop ourselves up with an agreement that allows us to re-establish the status quo.

If we can't defend our space from our enemies, we shouldn't hold space. That's how the game's meant to work. I can understand those celebrating with -A- and U'K at our failure, but I just don't "get" those who come across so upset that we'd rather lose on our terms.


Here's the thing, this has nothing to do with CVA's right to hold space.

Whoever made the decision to make a move towards HED/SV5 was foolish, and here's why:

1. First and Foremost, Providence as a coalition was on the rise. It was growing. The space suddenly became incredibly valuable - both economically profitable and close to empire with multiple safe dedicated routes that weren't heavily challenged by rival alliances. Providence had a cohesive core with a growing supercap fleet, one that honestly, given 6 months of growth, could probably have as a combined force dwarfed most.

2. The waters weren't well tested prior to the move. A good deal of extensive roaming around surrounding regions by CVA and its allies would have done a lot to test the waters and gather proper intel as to their relative combat capability compared to potential direct adversaries. Furthermore, it would have allowed more time to get accustomed to Dominion mechanics, and potentially may have attracted experienced members to non-CVA providence members. I know myself I was actually considering trying to beg for repentance to join up and see how I could help what I saw as the rising star of EVE, I imagine a reputation for roaming PVP would have drawn others in as well. Furthermore, external roaming would take pressure off of local industrialists regularly targeted by roving hostiles. Also works as a great team builder and is less frustrating than getting blueballed in a defense fleet.

3. The move in of itself was incredibly stupid. Moving for SV5/HED cuts off the last secure pipe to -A-, Atlas, and their respective allies. Check these maps:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/special/Providence-Catch.pdf

In this map, you can see what is obviously an Atlas JB chain to the SV5/HED pipe. This is important because of what you see here:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/special/Curse-Great_Wildlands-Scalding-Pass.pdf

which is a total lack of ATLAS presence. It is thus reasonable to assume that the HED pipe is also a significant ATLAS logistics pipe. So, even if you were so delusional that you thought you could take on -A- alone when they had nothing else serious on their minds, I can't possibly see how you thought you could take on both them and ATLAS, not to mention any number of their allies that also rely on the JB network and pipeline as their primary logistics source.

So, either CVA is guilty of negligent and irresponsible hubris or straight-up strategic incompetence.

Long story short, the move against that pipe was monumentally stupid in the first place.

4. In addition to the blatant challenge to the entire south and east and by extension probably one of the largest combined capfleets in EVE now, this move was made at the worst possible time conceivable. -A- and their allies had pretty much nothing better to do than devote everything to your destruction. Given that they are obviously more powerful than you, as you should have realized, attacking them at this instance was humongously stupid. -A- and ATLAS have many enemies, namely a big russian threat to their north, which likely would present itself seriously within the next 6 months. Why not wait until they are otherwise occupied and then take advantage of both a relative strategic weakness on their part and plenty of time to prepare for an actual fight by spamming mothership production in the meantime? The timing of this practically is just cutting your own throats.

5. After all of this complete and utter failure, and the tragic loss of 100-odd capital ships, -A- offers to stop and give it all back. In a move that demonstrates terrible leadership and utter lack of responsibility, you turned their offer down. The strong thing to do is to live to fight another day, the weak thing to do is to refuse to admit defeat and cause those who rely on you to suffer as a result. You are Amarrians for christ sake, there's nothing wrong with making a deal with some dirty heathens with full intent of exacting God's justice on their sorry asses when you build a supercap fleet under their noses and kick them when the time is right.

So, in conclusion, what pisses people off is that you are passing off strategic irresponsibility as strongly standing and fighting. Epic last stands are only epic against an enemy that actually wants you dead. Instead, you are begging them to kill you while trying to martyr yourself hopelessly against their knowingly superior forces. That's not heroism, that's not fighting for ideals, that's suicide.

Fighting for ideals requires some intention that they actually stay alive, not dying in their name. If you want to stick to your ideals, you preserve them when possible and shove them down others' throats when its prudent.

If -A- had it in for you guys from the start, then yes, begging for peace would be a gutless move only a coward would stoop to, and all of EVE would be behind you applauding your heroic last stand.

Since -A- offered to call off the dogs out of respect for your ideals and what you represent in EVE and you turned them down, people think you are just dumb. You could have rallied around the first defeat and built something truly great; instead, look at what has happened.

P.S. on a final strategic note, -A- having taken that bit in Querious would soon no longer need to rely on the HED pipe, so in another 6 months that and other parts of northern Catch could have been considered acceptable losses for them if their attention was forced elsewhere, particularly if their relationship with ATLAS was on the rocks due to say, a war with the Russians. Funny, isn't it? Instead of ensuring true dominance, you instead commit pointless suicide.


So yeah, hope that explains why people are Mad and are giving you shit.
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Garreck



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 140
Location: CVA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is an effective strategic analysis, Ituralde, but it really doesn't address my confusion at all. Okay, we're dumb. That is cause for anger and bitterness towards us? I figure laughter would be more appropriate. Laughter and fingerpointing I would understand, and there's plenty of that as well, but that's not what I'm talking about. The bitterness directed towards us by some of our enemies for losing is what is so curious to me.
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Ituralde



Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 364
Location: [STIM]

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, most of it is a "get over yourselves" aimed at your martyr complex. Many I think are offended at the concept of any defense for such incalculable stupidity.

A big part is "WAH MY BEAT TOY GOT BROKEN" as well.

And honestly, while a lot of people like shooting at you, CVA honestly has won the hearts and minds of EVE and everyone liked to see them do pretty well. I think a lot of people are let down by the fact that misplaced pride and strategic idiocy is killing one of their favorite alliances.

People like their Cinderella stories, and among the rest of EVE, CVA's foot fit the shoe perfectly. People also like things on the rise, and CVA was very much on the rise. That's why people are surprisingly sympathetic to IT's rise despite the fact that it's Bob all over again. Despite being one of the oldest alliances in EVE, CVA is still seen largely as the reclusive straight-A cute younger brother in EVE politics that everyone thought was going places.

And finally, it's a bit like watching a complete slaughter of an enemy. At the first bit, you cheer at a hated enemy being cut to bits at the height of their pride, the message of total defeat being pounded down their throats. But ultimately, as it continues, it gets sickening to watch the massacre of something that in hindsight, did have an element of beauty to it. Now, the killing merely turns stomachs and lacks the image of glorious retribution it once had. People see less their enemy being put in their place, and now merely look on to watch every last shred of glory of something that was once great burned into cinders under the watchful eyes of a regretful executioner that simply sees no other way.

Ok, so it's maybe not really that dramatic, but I had fun writing that Wink
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